What Election Day means to us?

[Bùi Thanh Tùng (tbhnams2002)]

The war in Iraq as far as I know is mostly about oil. But the war that immediately followed 9/11 was not the Iraq war. Hmmmm....

hm..I believe it was the Afghan war..In that one, Bush administration claims that Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 and Afghanistan was the base of Bin Laden and they refused to surrender Bin Laden to the US so ...WAR..However, I believe it was used as a preparation for the eventual invasion of Iraq..If you read back some old articles, you can see that Bush claimed that Iraq was partially involved in 9/11 by helping Bin Laden..So by going to war against Afghanistan, he could eventually go to war with Iraq..<= So i suppose it's all about money..

Assuming that you are talking about Kerry, Toan, what lies are you referring too?

yeah, I don't really get ur point..

this is true. US ecn is worse under Bush than Clinton, but it is not so bad considering the fact that it might have been in a depression without Bush ecn policies.

what depression are you talking about?..We r not going back to 1929 r we?..What have Bush done rite? Tax cut? Well, it's applicable for only the rich?? And some of them are not happy also..He only knows how to spend, spend and spend..He has juz made reforming the pension system his priority due to the ageing population in the US so we'll see what he can do

What I'm doing now is to find out how his re-election's gonna affect my life.

So how did it affect u during his first term )

 

[Hồ Lê Việt Hưng (Atonix)]

I wonder where you guys get all this information from? The Internet is indeed the least reliable source of information. I find it ironic that many of you guys brag about your knowledge about econ as well as politics, made statements as if you are the wisest of all and scorn others' opinions, while most of my professors are extremely skeptical when it comes to politics and American economy. The more you learn, the more you realize how much you do not know I guess.

 

[Nguyễn Hữu Toàn (hyper2002)]

crede ut intelligas!

 

[Nguyễn Mỹ Hạnh (NMHanh)]

"crede ut intelligas" ???

The Internet is indeed the least reliable source of information

I think it depends on what source in the internet

find it ironic that many of you guys brag about your knowledge about econ as well as politics, made statements as if you are the wisest of all and scorn others' opinions, while most of my professors are extremely skeptical when it comes to politics and American economy.

This is so true.

However, it doesn't mean that our topic stops here, does it?

Consider this

That's why I have to keep referring to books and Internet source to argue.

Debating is always a good way of learning. I know like you said, "most of my professors are extremely skeptical when it comes to politics and American economy", but one the other hand, they always encourage students to express their opinion and find proof to support it. Yes, it takes time to get to that point.

 

[Đặng Trần Hiếu (lt2hieu2004)]

It's true. That's why I have to keep referring to books and Internet source to argue.

Well, I for one have never even heard of you. Nor do I see any book/internet reference in any of your arguments. What I seem to be seeing is that you support your contradicting points by shooting down other people's opinions and act like an economic expert because, heh, you learned it in school. Really, do you always take what you are taught at face value? And while I cannot make the same happy claim, because let's face it, I go to school in VN and all my knowledge of economics is based on what I can gather from my reading, I find that your expertised knowledge isn't much more satisfying. A piece of advice: live up to your own words and support your view with more than just unfounded derision. As for your attitude, I think everyone else has made it pretty clear...

The war in Iraq as far as I know is mostly about oil. But the war that immediately followed 9/11 was not the Iraq war. Hmmmm.... :-?

the election, in an ironic way of speaking, was the race between a stupid and a liar (exaggration, of course, but definitely not impractical!). As for myself, I'd rather vote for the stupid; after all, "stupidity" is not a sin, but lying is!

Assuming that you are talking about Kerry, Toan, what lies are you referring too?

Exactly my point, what I have said is in all IGCSE & A level books in all countries which do A level. Don't believe it?? Just ask your friends or otherwise do a little search on google, there are loads of information on this available. All I have said: An economy which never experiences any deficit is a country with problems (or even if hasn't experience any deficit for a long time) and the U.S, like any countries, has a cycle of recession (or depression). Who can quote any A level (year 12) economics book without these information??

You said the war was mostly about oil, the problem is it doesn't make oil any cheaper. In fact, it just keep increasing steeply and partly due to the war in Iraq.

Everybody know that Kerry was not truthful about his war record in Vietnam. Moreover, he is one of the people who vote for a war in Iraq, in his campaign, he was against the war in Iraq to make it his advantage.

 

[Nguyễn Mỹ Hạnh (NMHanh)]

An economy which never experiences any deficit is a country with problems (or even if hasn't experience any deficit for a long time) and the U.S, like any countries, has a cycle of recession (or depression).

i concur

You said the war was mostly about oil, the problem is it doesn't make oil any cheaper. In fact, it just keep increasing steeply and partly due to the war in Iraq.

Oil hasn't got cheaper because the US hasn't got control over the oil in iraq yet.

 

[Nguyen Khac Son (blackmind)]

Exactly my point, what I have said is in all IGCSE & A level books in all countries which do A level. Don't believe it?? Just ask your friends or otherwise do a little search on google, there are loads of information on this available. All I have said: An economy which never experiences any deficit is a country with problems (or even if hasn't experience any deficit for a long time) and the U.S, like any countries, has a cycle of recession (or depression). Who can quote any A level (year 12) economics book without these information??

Fine. Granted that A level econ books do mention such stuffs, you did not address any of the questions raised above.
Mind me citing them?

You also say that an economy without a deficit ever is not a good economy... this is, perhaps, true indeed. but since I don't know of any economy in the history that never experiences a deficit, of course it is questionable

And here comes your response

All of my arguments are based on what I have learned in school. Even "an economy which never experience a deficit is not a good economy", it is because an economy which experiences surplus for a long time is not good. Therefore I don't think it is questionable. If it is so then probably we shouldn't go to school.

You didnt provide any reasonable argument to defend statements you made. Mind doing that for us, ignorant readers?

Really, do you always take what you are taught at face value?

Although you have not answered this question directly, your posts imply that you do, indeed. Just a thought: do you really think a year of economic studies at A level make you erudite enough to take almost every other posters head-on, some of which happen to majors in Econ?

I read the websites that you posted. It is indeed signed by some of the top professors but the problem is where is the argument in Kerry's letter?? All it say is that Bush economic policies are not good, see the statistics and you will see. But in a country currently in recession how can you expect to see an optimistic statistics??

So the economy just sank by itself, due to your 'recession cycle theorem', right? And all of a sudden, it went back to the good old lassez-fair economy, right? And oh, BTW, statistics dont matter. :lol:
My guess is that you just dont want to use your extremely advanced brain cells to either read others' posts carefully ( they're all BS anyway, right? ) or reply them properly ( with appropriate proofs, that is ). Nice attitude too :lol:
BTW,

Everybody know that Kerry was not truthful about his war record in Vietnam..

I cant figure out exactly what you based this on since the 'Swift Boat's Veterans' issue was struck down long ago. Or if you referred to the documentary made by Cheney's group, well, it didnt mention anything remotely like this.
Peace.
P.S: Why cant I use the guest account to post here anymore?

 

[Hoàng Long (Death_Creator)]

Hieu, 2 things:
1. first of all, you have pointed out to us that you are doing A-level in the UK. that's very good, we respect that however, this is not the point. What ppl are trying to tell you is that: do not, by making your points, bash others' opinions. You said that Bush was not to blame so did your teachers... and your textbooks, and your internet info. But well, Stiglitz said Bush was to blame. here, I shamelessly appeal to authority and daresay that neither you, your teachers nor even the textbook writers can claim a greater knowledge of economics than Stiglitz. However, Friedman endorsed Bush's tax policies. In this respect, between them even Stiglitz never daresays that he has a greater authority than Friedman. I hope you see the points. When even the great economists are divided, we students should humble ourselves and listen before making firm judgments. You said that the letter by the 10 economists lacked an empirical foundation. well, for 1 thing, it's a letter, not an academic article or essay. For another, statistical info to back the economists' arguments is not hard to find. Look here:
http://www.nber.org/
2. What you've been saying about business cycles is trivial. I don't think anybody here is trying to argue with you about that.

 

[Đặng Trần Hiếu (lt2hieu2004)]

You didnt provide any reasonable argument to defend statements you made. Mind doing that for us, ignorant readers?

Because it is indeed so. When you debate, your argument can be based on books that you have read, right?? I said all A level economics books have this kind of information, who is an ignorant reader then?? Look at it in another way, if someone tell you "Don't delete your C:\Windows folder because then you won't be able to boot into Windows anymore", do you say "I don't know of any person have ever done that before so it's questionable"?? You won't said so if you don't want to be laughed at.

So the economy just sank by itself, due to your 'recession cycle theorem', right? And all of a sudden, it went back to the good old lassez-fair economy, right? And oh, BTW, statistics dont matter.

I didn't say statistics don't matter, I said if the U.S is indeed in recession then an optimistic statistic is impossible. And more over that recession cycle theorem is not mine, if you don't believe what you have learn then what do you believe??

I cant figure out exactly what you based this on since the 'Swift Boat's Veterans' issue was struck down long ago

When is this issue strucked down?? Where did you get this information. Since you keep talking about proofs, give us some proofs then.

 

[Nguyen Khac Son (blackmind)]

When is this issue strucked down?? Where did you get this information. Since you keep talking about proofs, give us some proofs then.

Swift Boat Veterans' official website
Let's get this straight. Originally, the whole thing is more about whether Kerry is a good fit to be the 'commander-in-chief' due to his anti-war view after his service in VN and very few is truly about what, when, where and how Kerry lied about his war records. Among those mentioned, absolutely none of them are based on any authentic source. Instead, everything that group provided are disparate and ambiguous quotes from several 'Swift Boat' members. And the most remarkable charge they threw at Kerry is quoted below

It is clear that at least one of Kerry's Purple Heart awards was the result of his own negligence, not enemy fire, and that Kerry went to unusual lengths to obtain the award after being turned down by his own commanding officer.

How much truth behind this charge remains unclear. But anyone in their right mind reading this web site should be able to raise doubts about its accuracy.
On the other side, this is what I get from JohnKerry.com
http://www.johnkerry.com/rapidresponse/080504_truth.html
my selection of evidence may raise some eyebrows since this is an Kerry endorsing web site. Still, this site contains quotes from many trusted media sources and it provides clear rebuttals for almost every single detail of the story the prosecutors threw out. The most notable ones are of Senator John McCain, a prominent figure of the GOP.
Anyway, this issue died down for months and is almost ignored by both parties in the last 3 months of their presidential campaign. If this is not what you are looking for, then sorry for any confusion created by my initial post.

 

[Nguyen Khac Son (blackmind)]

Because it is indeed so. When you debate, your argument can be based on books that you have read, right?? I said all A level economics books have this kind of information, who is an ignorant reader then?? Look at it in another way, if someone tell you "Don't delete your C:\Windows folder because then you won't be able to boot into Windows anymore", do you say "I don't know of any person have ever done that before so it's questionable"?? You won't said so if you don't want to be laughed at.

First, I did not use 'ignorant', or any bad words for that matter, on you. Read it again, please.
Second, may be it's just me, but your analogy appears flawed. Considering the fact that your specialty is computer science, it's still somewhat inappropriate to compare such vastly different subject. What if the windows directory has different name or is located elsewhere? Out of sheer curiosity, I would delete it anyway given the circumstance.
Sorry for chatting.

 

[Nguyễn Mỹ Hạnh (NMHanh)]

So the economy just sank by itself, due to your 'recession cycle theorem', right? And all of a sudden, it went back to the good old lassez-fair economy, right? And oh, BTW, statistics dont matter

i don't really get what u mean. Do you mean the business cycles is not right any more? Why after each prosperous period, there is a recession? There are many reasons. Just an example, the low unemployment rate makes it harder for employers to hire the people they need.

Yeah, you cannot totally deny the existance of the business cycle. Even top economists cannot deny it. The only thing they can do is trying to smooth it out by holding the ecn when it is growing too fast and by pushing the ecn when it is tending to go down. Under Clinton's term, the ecn was growing so fast (there's time unemployment rate reached 3.9%, ones who study US ecn know that 4 - 5% is considered full emloyment) so obviously, there's a recession under Bush. One may wonder why all the economists don't do anything to prevent the US ecn from a recession. i guess they are trying to. The proof is that although US ecn is claimed to be in a recession, it's still growing, just not as fast as under Clinton term.

About statistics, statistics do matter, but they are not as important as the way you interpret them

But well, Stiglitz said Bush was to blame. here, I shamelessly appeal to authority and daresay that neither you, your teachers nor even the textbook writers can claim a greater knowledge of economics than Stiglitz. However, Friedman endorsed Bush's tax policies. In this respect, between them even Stiglitz never daresays that he has a greater authority than Friedman. I hope you see the points. When even the great economists are divided, we students should humble ourselves and listen before making firm judgments.

I am not clear what the point you are making here.

For what I inpterpret from your argument, I can make an analogy: because Operah (for who don't live in the US, Operah is a famous famous TV show) votes for Bush so I should vote for Bush; because Stiglitz blames bush for crappy ecn, so I should too. I know my analogy does not really make sense, but i hop u understand my point. You cannot base your argument on a personal view (even if it's an xpert view), your argument must be based on facts. I could be an ecn genius, I could have some brilliant idea (better than Stiglitz's), would u turn my idea down (don't take my example serious, there's no way i major in ecn)

 

[Hoàng Chi Mai (lablugirl)]

We get Oprah in VN too, Hanh And I don't think Mr.Long was trying to tell us that we should listen to any particular view just because the person who holds it has expertise in the subject. Rather, he was probably pointing out to Hieu that even the best authorities on Economics cannot claim to be all knowing, nor can they refute the views of others and declare them inferior. Considering all sides before making a judgement is different from mindlessly capitulating to a seemingly wise source, though sometimes this urge does become a little overwhelming ;

I think earlier on you mentioned that the Bush administration did have certain policies that helped the US economy. Can you give me a specific example of one?

 

[Đặng Trần Hiếu (lt2hieu2004)]

According to Swift Boat Veteran's website: "More than 250 Swift boat veterans have now signed an open letter to Senator Kerry challenging his fitness to serve as commander-in-chief of America's armed forces." These people including officer in charge, other Swift Boat Veterans,... Is there any other way to reveal the truth??

Moreover, John Kerry's website only quote people who supported Kerry. This is questionable. You said none of the evidence in Swift Boat Veteran's website is based on any authentic source, what about the evidence in Kerry's website, any of those based on any authentic source?? Of course it contains quotation from trusted media source but then again, those trusted media sources quoted from people who supported Kerry.

 

[Đặng Trần Hiếu (lt2hieu2004)]

Because it is indeed so. When you debate, your argument can be based on books that you have read, right?? I said all A level economics books have this kind of information, who is an ignorant reader then?? Look at it in another way, if someone tell you "Don't delete your C:\Windows folder because then you won't be able to boot into Windows anymore", do you say "I don't know of any person have ever done that before so it's questionable"?? You won't said so if you don't want to be laughed at.

First, I did not use 'ignorant', or any bad words for that matter, on you. Read it again, please.
Second, may be it's just me, but your analogy appears flawed. Considering the fact that your specialty is computer science, it's still somewhat inappropriate to compare such vastly different subject. What if the windows directory has different name or is located elsewhere? Out of sheer curiosity, I would delete it anyway given the circumstance.
Sorry for chatting.

I'm not comparing computer science with economics, I'm comparing this: "but since I don't know of any economy in the history that never experiences a deficit, of course it is questionable".

What is the different if I said c:\windows then?? You get my point, right?? Or should I say the Windows directory then you will be able to understand??

 

[Hoàng Chi Mai (lablugirl)]

According to Swift Boat Veteran's website: "More than 250 Swift boat veterans have now signed an open letter to Senator Kerry challenging his fitness to serve as commander-in-chief of America's armed forces." These people including officer in charge, other Swift Boat Veterans,... Is there any other way to reveal the truth??

The truth that Kerry is an incompetent commander-in-chief (a debatle issue) or the truth that he lied to us in his campaign? Either the way, this doesn't answer the question of what particular act of dishonesty Kerry has committed. As for changing his view about teh Iraq war, I don't think it can be called lying. This was actually the reason for the "flip-flopper" image, but liar?

And please, Hieu, we are not trying to attack your integrity or intelligence, so mind toning down the personal remarks?

 

[Mai Phượng Linh (I don't know)]

tbhnams2002: U asked me "how did it affect me during his first term?" )

Hơ, smart question,=D> I totally forgot about that. Actually, not much that matters. (but I still hate him)

Watching people here discussing, I have found that many of u have reasonable argument (which I don't have :| ). I just wondered how Bush's re-election as well as his first term ('cause MR. tbhnams2002 mentioned this :biggrin have affected u guys' life. Is it bad or good? What are u gonna do with it? Kerry lost and Bush is the winner, that's the fact.

Since US's Election Day is not too important for me to bother thinking too much about now, I'm out of here. :tounge:

 

[Nguyễn Mỹ Hạnh (NMHanh)]

To CM: err... I don't know that we get Oprah in VN. That's kool. Btw, you have excellent writing skils

And I don't think Mr.Long was trying to tell us that we should listen to any particular view just because the person who holds it has expertise in the subject. Rather, he was probably pointing out to Hieu that even the best authorities on Economics cannot claim to be all knowing, nor can they refute the views of others and declare them inferior. Considering all sides before making a judgement is different from mindlessly capitulating to a seemingly wise source, though sometimes this urge does become a little overwhelming

If this is Long's original idea, i would appreciate his attempt, but to be honest with you guys, his attempt is just gonna be a futile one. Hieu is not gonna change. Trust me, I learnt from experience

 

[Nguyễn Mỹ Hạnh (NMHanh)]

I think earlier on you mentioned that the Bush administration did have certain policies that helped the US economy. Can you give me a specific example of one?

I asserted that Bush had quite a few attempts to help the US ecn, but I have to admit not all of them worked or worked perfectly.

One of the major attempts Bush has made is cutting tax, which is claimed to give large business motive to work harder. This policy worked. US ecn is growing, inflation rate was kept low. However, it din't worked perfectly because the price to give large business that motive is too high.

His other attempt is: spend, spend, spend (keyne's philosophy (i don't know how to spell his name, i hop u guys know wat i mean)). Personally, I don't think this policy works because the root of the recession is cost-push (the affects from foreign supply-side) not price-pull (the US inflation rate right now is quite low)

The most reasonable "policy" that I think Bush has made is the Iraq war. Maybe some of you oppose to war, but the facts show that it works. Oil price stops increasing drastically (I went get gas a few day ago and gas price drops 3 cents/gallon... yahoo, i saved almost a quarter) and with US ecn, oil relates to everything

I can't think of any other specific example right now. I lost my access to the WSJ

 

[Tống Minh Tuấn (TuanCominglate)]

So Bush has won, you should expect that the US economy will go down in the next four coming years and it is tough to get financial aid to study in US because the present administration does not want to finance more on that field.

Furthermore, USD will be depreciated for long time in the future. Let's think of budgeting more EURO, the going-to-be stronger currency after that re-election. Your chance to make money.

For Vietnamese students, one thing I still suppose is that we will ger our Visa easier with Kerry than we do with Bush